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Moscow Guardian Dog

Moscow Watchdog (centry dog, storozevaya sobaka)
on Monday 06 July 2009
by SobakUS

in article
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10.0 - 3 votes -

HISTORY AND STANDARD OF
MOSCOW GUARDIAN DOG
AKA
MOSCOW WATCHDOG,
MOSCOW CENTRY DOG,
MOSCOWSKAYA STOROZEVAYA

While the MGD is looking much like the St Bernard, in reality this Russian Native Breed combines the St Bernard's beauty and intelligence and Caucasian Ovtcharka's versatility and drive.
Adaptability of this breed exceeds both, CO and St Bernard, the MGD will perfectly fit into any environment. In post-Soviet countries, MGD was highly praised as a universal dog, being a perfect family pet, while it's instincts makes it highly trainable working and personal protection dog.
This is how MGD temperament is described in Russia : "Family members do not believe, that it the toughest dog in protection training, while the trainer does not believe that this beast is the sweetest family pet".

Two MGDs from New York
Jenny and Bagration,
the parents of the first USA-born litter of MGDs.
Both dogs were raised and get their working titles in Ukraine,
and came to USA with their owners.

HOW THE BREED WAS BORN

MGD is one of the few breeds, which were created in former USSR for performing specific tasks of guarding, patrolling and convoying, and the only one, where the creators reached their goal. This process gives us good illustration of what can be get from mastiffs gene pools by distinguished professionals with clear vision of the desirable result, good breeding material and some luck. Like in the "natural" breeding techniques, used for thousands of years, results were achieved almost intuitively, based mainly on experience and creative vision of the breed.

Russian kynologists in 40's already had some experience in research and alteration of various dog breeds, including negative (one may recall prewar experiments of crossing German Shepherds and Siberian Huskies, which did not give any good results even in first generations). This experience was very much different from that in Western countries and in USA. In former Eastern Block each and every new idea, even in dog breeding and training (especially in working dogs, which were like a kind of military equipment), had to be checked and approved by ideology. And it happened so, that main methods of modern dog breeding and training were put out of law in Soviet Empire (which includes at that time all Eastern Europe). Genetic researches where banned, the same as behaviorist ideas, until 60's. Amazingly, it did not have much effect on the quality of working dogs, and even now, a decade after the fall of Communist Empire, former Eastern Block, including it's Soviet part, still have the highest quality working dogs. The reason for it is decades of enforced implementing of severe breeding, raising and training rules for all working breeds.

According to Russian Academician M.Ivanov, the following criteria had to be met while breeding:
a) building a strong background by establishing of the comprehensive Breed Standard, based on clear vision of the perfect breed specimen for proper selection of the foundation stock; it must give the possibility of determination of the inbreed types and detailed description of the individual animals;
b) evaluation of every breeding prospect in accordance with the standard in confirmation, temperament and training abilities;
c) evaluation of every litter, and rating the parents accordingly; the parents origin and the pedigrees must be carefully analyzed based on statistics ;
d) noncompromised disqualification, selection for further breeding only the specimen carrying the most desirable traits in both conformation, temperament and trainability, in order to establish uniform population.

This ideas were not just declaration - they were used by millions of dog owners all over the former USSR. The whole system was based on the thousands of DOSAAF clubs (DOSAAF was government ruled paramilitary organization for "helping Army, Aviation and Fleet", responsible for keeping society and citizens to be a part of military machine). Most of those DOSAAF clubs had special dog sections which were capable of providing testing, training, litter evaluation, selection of best foundation animals, etc. DOSAAF was strictly supervising selection for working qualities. For decades dog professionals with adequate schooling and training were to decide whether or not certain pair of dogs, (usually owned by private citizens), should be bred, and it was practically impossible to get registration papers and pedigrees for unplanned litters. Even now, after fall of the Soviet system and DOSAAF, there are dozens of clubs and kennels all over the former USSR, which are continuing this practices and maintaining old DOSAAF stud books.

Information above may seem unrelated to breed description, but we must realize, that Moscow guardian dog is the only known experiment of using this severe rules in breeding and raising Molosses. (The other two Molosses from the territory of the former Soviet Union, Caucasian and Central-Asian Ovtcharkas, entered the period of cultural "kennel breeding" in the middle 80's, at the decline of DOSAAF, and were not subject to this severe breeding requirements).

At the end of 40's, after WW2, Russian military kynologists faced a task to restore the canine population of Soviet States, seriously outnumbered by war. The most used military breed, German Shepherds (which after the war turned into "East European Shepherds" - the reason was obvious, "German" was synonym to "enemy"), highly trainable and intelligent, are designed to obey commands; decades of specialized training changed the breed ability for independent decisions and actions, what limited their use as guardian dogs. And post-war Russia, half-ruined, poor, with millions of soldiers returning home from Europe, with raising crime wave, needed thousands of Guard Dogs. Those dogs had to be able in any conditions, including 6 to 8 months snowy winters with temperatures as low as -30-40 C, 24X7 guard and protect gigantic plants, warehouses, railroads, labor camps - all infrastructure of Soviet Empire, every piece of government property in the country, where practically everything was owned by government.
The task was tremendous, and in 1946-47 Military kynologists begin their work. Project was headed by Gen. Medvedev. The Central School Of Military Kynology, a department of USSR Ministry of Defense, was chosen as the base for this research. In the beginning the main part of foundation stock consisted of trophy dogs from different countries (later many outstanding dogs were purchased from the countries of origin). Gen. Medvedev's idea was massive cross-breeding purebred dogs in different combinations and selecting offsprings with desirable qualities - big, aggressive, weather-resistant and easy-to-use. The whole train of dogs from European kennels arrived by railroad in the Veshniaki village near Moscow, to the kennels of Central School Of Military Kynology. Many breeds were presented by only two-three dogs. Massive metisation began, and in four-five generations, near decade, new breed prospects were presented to the "Party and Government", as it was used to say in former USSR. The most known among them were: "Moscow Dog" ("Dog" serves in Russian for " Great Dane"), cross of predominantly Eastern-European Shepherd and Great Dane; "Moscow Wodolas (Diver)" - cross of Newfoundland, Caucasian Ovtcharka and German Shepherd; " Black Russian Terrier" - incredible mixture of dozen absolutely different breeds, from Giant Schnauzer to South-Russian Ovtcharka and Standard Poodle; and "Moscow Guardian Dog", made mainly of CO and Saint Bernard, plus couple of hounds, GSD, and God knows what more. Some of them were met by enthusiastic lovers and begin new life out of military program, as it happened to BRT, some were not understood by public and disappeared.

Author and "Moscow Dog" Rona.
Moscow, winter 1976

In 70's I owned one of this experimental dogs, "Moscow Dog" (Great Danes + Eastern-European Shepherds). Rona, black bitch with white chest and paws, with high cropped ears, head at the type of Great Dane, with less heavy muzzle, short hair with undercoat, 74cm in withers, 60kg weight, had ideal temperament and trainability. Very athletic (she easily jumped in the truck with a board more than 230cm high, runs across the river on the gas tube 60cm in diameter and 50m long, etc.), sleeping in snow when camping, spending days outdoors in the temperatures below -10C. Great dog, the companion to all our young adventures. I would say, it was a version of Great Dane, more compact, more usable in Russian climate, without any health problems, and with much more working drive. Anyhow, the Army was not interested in further experiments, and public was not impressed by this "strange-looking Great Danes". I never found a matching stud to breed Rona, and even almighty DOSAAF did not help. I think, she was among the last ones in this breed group. The same fate met "Moscow Wodolaz". Speculations were that the Army never reached the acceptable level of uniformity in both breeds.

" Black Russian Terrier" - BRT- was rejected by military for another reason. It needs a lot of care for his long? often curly hair, trimming, brushing, etc. This beautiful black fur, so attractive to the public, becomes a problem in a field use. It was excluded from the program, from military kennels this breed was given for further development in DOSAAF clubs, and soon it found thousands of lovers in Russia and abroad.

Now, 50 years later, we can say, that all this experiments had only one successful result - if success means matching the given goal. It was creation of Moscow Guardian Dog: - healthy, easy-to-use, easy-to-handle, intelligent, trainable, robust, with stable temperament, ideal All-Purpose Guardian Dog.
But, as it sometimes happens to great projects, at the time of success there was already no need for it. Times changed: Stalinist regime, military rules, gigantic labor camps were already history. In the 70's, after almost three decades of training, selecting, breeding and evaluating, the leading military Kennel "Red Star" presented on the VDNH - kind of an official government exibition grouns - more than fifty of it's best MGDs, of uniform conformation, fully trained, ready to any kind of work - excellent breeding stock. The task was fulfilled, professionals and public were impressed… but there was nobody out there to claim the newborn breed.

MGD of 70's

When in 70's great part of MGD's and their breeding program went to DOSAAF clubs, it found hundreds of lovers, amazed by MGDs intelligence and working abilities. Until 1985 they were working on breed development, and all severe rules of training and evaluating dogs and their offsprings were strictly preserved. In 1985 the MGD was officially recognized in Russia as a breed, and the experiments with adding new bloods were finished. The breed was established, it was different from parent ones, and it's wide use in different areas of guardian work - from plants and estates to personal protection - was the proof, that it was given the right name.

WHAT IN A BREED?

Let us take a closer look on the formation of the MGD. Several breeds participated in the process: Caucasian Ovtcharka, Russian Hound, St-Bernard, German Shepherd, occasionally even Russian Borzoi.
Among the whole bunch of crossbreeds, made at the beginning of the experiments, two were chosen - Russian Hound x GSD and CO x StB. This dogs were crossbred again and again, and from each litter the animals with the most robust built, with the best working abilities were selected. While working abilities of the resulting crossbreeds were increasing with each generation, the breeders were long indecisive as to general appearance of the dogs. There were MGDs with ears cropped, like COs, then there were MGDs with tails docked - until in 50's they begin looking generally like St Bernard. But the resulting breed was much more active and aggressive than StB, and much more controllable than CO (in 50's-60's CO's were not what we see in 00's, they were very different in size, conformation, temperament, and mostly untrainable). From the very beginning of the experiments, COxStB crosses were used more often, in proportion 3:1 to others, and very soon Hounds x GSD crosses were excluded from the program. Creators returned to pure Molossians - CO and StB -, and now no one can find signs of Hound or GSD in the MGD appearance. But supposedly this initial bloods had some influence on what trainers call "working drive", something rather unusual to Molossians, but very natural to MGDs.

MGD in the Army

From the first generations of big, strong dogs with thick coat and undercoat, aggressive and active, well trained, were selected the dogs for further breeding. In the middle of 50's dozens of litters were regularly sent to Army for practical evaluation of their working abilities. The main criteria was, to make the new dogs free from undesirable features of parent breeds. It meant, that dogs of StB type, with unacceptable for MGD loose eyelids, lips, weak ligaments, phlegmatic, were bred to the dogs of more robust constitution and active temperament. And vice versa, dogs in CO type, with excessive aggression, unstable nervous system, with CO coloration, were bred to the dogs with more StB blood.

Here are some names of the famous ancestors of modern MGDs.
From breeding CO Wephia to StB Tutti was born first breed Champion - ORSLAN. Later from StB Bibo and CO Raketa was born famous SHERKHAN. From StB Allah was born Ch Mars, multiple show winners Baron and Frank.
Further development of the breed was based on the lines of
1. Ch ORSLAN: he was founder of the kennel lines of Ch Murat, Ch Dik, Ikar, Malysh, Jack-Janal
2. SHERKHAN: founder of the lines of Joy, Chebdar, Brut, Kashtan, Zhdan.
3. From new generations one of the most known is the line of VDNH winner ZURBAGAN and his son, Ch of Moscow Shows and VDNH Kardan.

Champion DIK from "Red Star" military Kennels

According to the opinion of breed experts, until now most of outstanding bitches are from Sherhan lines, and the best litters they produced when bred to dogs from Orslan lines. This two general lines give the best representatives of two modern types of MGD.
Orslan lines: high, heavy-boned, with heavy heads, very stable temperament, usually bright red, very trainable.
Sometimes with narrow chest, problems with teeth, digestion, sometimes too heavy built and looking like StB.
Sherhan lines: wide chest, strong teeth, strong joints in rear hindquarters, strong and robust constitution.
Sometimes of medium height, unstable, with non-desirable dark coloration , looking like CO.
In MGDs today we can see influence of both of this lines.

BREED STANDARDS

Russian Champions
Ch SHEIKH, Ch DJULIA-MARTINI, Ch RAFAELA

In 70's, when the initial breeding stock for MGD was formed, first breed standard was written. In this standard height was min 66cm for dogs, 63cm for bitches; robust bone structure, massive muscles, thick skin with wrinkles, massive head with pronounced forehead, short heavy muzzle, thick lips, deep chest widening towards loin.
In 1985, when the breed formation was finished, new standard was accepted. Height became 68-75cm for dogs, min 66cm for bitches, head get a pronounced stop, short muzzle, thick lips; chest became wide, deep, long, rounded (this change in chest proportions came as the result of intense training and increase of lung volume). Overdone constitution became fault, what increases general health of the breed and decrease number of joints problems.
In April 1992 Russian Federation of Working Dogs accepted third (current) standard for Moscow guardian dogs.

MGD STANDARD-92

The Moscow guardian dog is bigger than average size, massive dog, with the body slightly elongated; with well developed volumetric muscles. Hardy, of excellent adaptability, they easily adjusts to any climate. Very self-esteemed and self-assured.
Robust built type. Preferable height at the shoulder is 77-78 сm for males; 72-73 cm for bitches. The minimum height is 68 cm for males, 66 сm for bitches with no maximum. Sexual dimorphism is clearly determined.

Head
Massive, wide at a cranial part. The forehead is wide, slightly convex, is divide into two parts by a slight furrow; the stop is short and well defined .
The muzzle is somewhat shorter than a cranial part, is dull and volumetric. Lips are thick, black, overhanging. Cheekbones are rounded, well -pronounced. Zygomatic arches are clearly developed. Occipital hill is massive, notable. Nose large, black.

Ears
Small, hanging, triangular, dense at the basis, well fit to the cheekbones, of moderately high set.

Eyes
Small, dark, somewhat rounded, of wide and straight set. Lids are black, dry. Teeth are large, white, dense set, full dentition (42 teeth). Incisors are lined up. Scissors bite. Broken incisors not to be penalized for as long as do not influent the evaluation of the bite.

Neck
Massive, short, low set (30-40 degrees to a horizontal line). Moderatel dewlap is allowed.

Chest
Deep, long, wide, rounded rib cage, extending towards back part. The chest front part is positioned upfront to a shoulder joints. The bottom line is at or below elbows level. Withers high, wide, long, well muscled, well pronounced, - especially in males. The height at the withers is preferably slightly above the height at the rump.

The back strong, straight, wide. Loin short, wide, well muscled, slightly arched. Rump is wide, well muscled, moderately long, almost horizontal. Belly is moderately tucked up.

The front legs
when seen from the front are straight and parallel. Shoulders are long, inclined forming approximately 100 degrees angle. Shoulders are well muscled, forearms are straight, moderately long, massive. Elbows are directed strictly back. Pasterns are short, wide, strong, slightly inclined. The length of a front limb up to an elbow equals or slightly exceeds half of the dog' height at shoulder.

Hindquarters
The back legs when seen from the front are straight and parallel, set wider than front legs. Upper tights are not long, slightly inclined. Lower tights are short. Upper and lower tights are of approximately equal length. The angulation of both joints is moderate. Pasterns are vertical, short.

Tail
Is high set, wide, thick, long enough to reach the hock joint. Tail is carried low, slightly curved towards the end. When excited, rises above the back line. The base of a tail is on one line with the rump.

Coat
Coat is coarse, long, well fit, rich, with well developed undercoat, outer hair is flat. The hair on the head and front part of the limbs is noticeably short, well fit. There is a longer "feathering", - especially males' hair is longer around the neck referred to as "the mane", "feathering" behind ears, on the back part of forearms, hips, pasterns and the tail. Slightly wavy coat at the rump and back limbs is allowed.
Presence of a reddish shade in the color is necessary.
Preferably, there should be white on the chest, around the neck and shoulders, front legs up to an elbow and back legs up to the hock; the tip of a tail. Dark mask around the eyes and blackness on ears, white blaze on a forehead are mandatory.

Movement
Typical movements are short trot and heavy gallop. While trotting, limbs are straight while the forelimbs move towards the median. Joints bent freely, the back and a loin softly spring. Withers and rump should be at one level while trotting.

Faults
Strongly pronounced similarity to initial breeds. Insufficiently heavy built type, insufficient boning, weak muscles, Insufficiently long body that equals the height at the shoulder. Slackness, excessive excitability. Narrow head, head of insufficient size; rounded skull, unclear stop; loose lips forming "pocket", strongly pronounced intraorbital furrow, deep wrinkles on a forehead and cheekbones, significant sites missing pigmentation on lips, partially pigmented nose, chocolate eyelids or nose
Ears strongly deformed, semi-erect, major distance between the head and the ears; shapeless or cropped ears. Very light or blue eyes, odd eyes. Protruding eyes, narrow or not set straight eyes, excessively loose eyelids, excessively developed eye membranes. A cataract. Missing teeth. Incisors not lined up. Caries. Long neck, high set neck, excessive dewlap, neck Insufficiently strong.
A flat, narrow, underdeveloped chest; narrow, arched or loose loin; narrow, short, sharply oblique rump.
Rump is way above the withers. Tail ring set, hook set, undivided vertebrae at the end of the tail, vertical carriage of the tail in the excited condition, docked tail, bob tail. A strong deviation from a correct shoulder joint angle (withers meet the upper arm bones into improper angle). Curved, unproportionally long or short forearms, elbows sharply off line, pasterns sharply expressed turn in or out, very weak pasterns. Short withers or upper arm bones.
Hindlimbs narrow set, hock joints narrow set. Back limbs of bowed set. Weak pasterns. Excessively straightened or excessively pronounced hock joints, unproportionally long lower tight.
Loose movement, weak joints. Present back dewclaws.
Curly or wavy coat; very short coat with the feathering is missing.
Mask around the eyes clearly not symmetrical, white spots on the ears, absence of the black pigment in the mask; any color other than combination of white and above specified colors. Absence of the mask around the eyes or a unilateral mask ("monocle"); the glasses which are not covering an internal corner of an eye.
Tied up or unbalanced movement. Rump above withers while trotting.

Disqualifying faults
Any deviation from scissors bite. Amble. A strongly pronounced deviation from the breed type. Bilateral or unilateral chryptorchizm, underdeveloped testicles. Coward or excessively aggressive dogs.

BREED TODAY

MGD's in the USA
Granddaughter, Toy-terrier,
Sisters

MGD never was a "popular breed" in dog community. At the peak of popularity in Russia one may see around 50-60 dogs in the breed rings on major dog shows; now you can see less than 20-30 of them in the rings in Russia or Ukraine. One of the reasons may be that Russian Kynological Federation is still working on preparing papers for FCI to get the MGD FCI registered, what means, that the aerial of breed is limited mainly to post-Soviet countries. It is interesting question, is it good or bad for the breed. Being almost unknown in Europe and USA, MGD was luckily left out of commercial breeding. While the last years were marked by raze of popularity and decline in quality of some Molosser breeds, MGDs are still bred by enthusiasts and breed lovers not for profit, but for the betterment of their working abilities. It is rather rare example in modern world, when dogs are used strictly in accordance with breed origination purpose.
StB-like appearance makes this dogs look rather familiar to public, and to realize their great difference in training and working abilities one has to have enough knowledge and experience. MGD is a dog with great self-respect, and though it won't usually challenge the owner to prove, "who is alfa here", it definitely need to feel kind of respect to the man, who is giving commands. They are smart enough for not to be taken by brutal force, but once you get contact with this dogs, they may do literally everything. They are not too quick to "jump on your order", they have to understand it first, but once taught, they never forget the lesson.
Despite absolutely peaceful appearance, they are extremely protective, what means, that all of them need serious training and responsible owners. While training your MGD, you will be amazed, how much they have in their mind. It is like they know everything you are going to teach them for all their life (which is usually 3-4 months, MGDs have to start training early), and all they need from you is just to remember them some details. That is the visible result of decades of breeding only fully trained dogs, something rather unusual in modern world of Molosses.
First presentation of the breed in the USA was made on Canadian Rarities Show in 2000, with support from Russian Native Breed Association, where MGDs from Ukraine Jenny and Bagration were shown together with two their 5-months old daughters. There are still very few imported MGDs in USA. MGDs are just making their first steps out of their country of origin, and we can only guess, what will be the future of this very unusual breed in the diverse world of modern Molossians.

This article was written 5 yearsago, but nothing changed in a breed since than.
Anyhow, author will be thankful for updates.

Eugene A. Zelenyk, Philadelphia, 2004
EZelenyk @ Yahoo.com

This article is based on the materials presented privately and in different articles by breed experts from Russia and Ukraine, and on authors experience with MGDs he owned, bred, raised and trained.

Comments

MOSCOW GUARDIAN DOG admin 06 Jul : 20:41 Reply to this
Comments: 65	Eugene - please edit to ensure the photo links are correct. Location: San Antonio, TX, USA -------------------------- Gary Sicard \| MD Admin

MOSCOW GUARDIAN DOG SobakUS 06 Jul : 21:35 Reply to this
Comments: 16 Registered: 27 Jun : 12:57	Still trying to place pictures, no success yet [ Lieutenant ] Location: NE PA Aude Saper

MOSCOW GUARDIAN DOG SobakUS 06 Jul : 21:55 Reply to this
Comments: 16 Registered: 27 Jun : 12:57	Gary, how can I edit the article now? [ Lieutenant ] Location: NE PA Aude Saper

MOSCOW GUARDIAN DOG SobakUS 07 Jul : 09:33 Reply to this
Comments: 16 Registered: 27 Jun : 12:57	Thank You! I also uploaded all the picturs to "general" category, so they are supposedly somewhere on the server, but have no idea, how to find them and put in the edited text. Sorry for troubles. Do you think article is worth it? [ Lieutenant ] Location: NE PA Aude Saper

MOSCOW GUARDIAN DOG SobakUS 07 Jul : 10:54 Reply to this
Comments: 16 Registered: 27 Jun : 12:57	OK, look like I'm done [ Lieutenant ] Location: NE PA Aude Saper

Re: MOSCOW GUARDIAN DOG gsicard 05 Sep : 08:23 Reply to this
Comments: 95	Excellent. Thanks for adding the photos and formatting the article. Nice job. Location: San Antonio, TX Gary Sicard Gary Sicard Fear not the harsh words of your enemies but beware the silence of your friends. - Gary Sicard

MOSCOW GUARDIAN DOG nalim 08 Jul : 15:22 Reply to this
Comments: 4 Registered: 01 Jan : 23:00	big dog,big s...t.by pit.tree pits are much useful,but eat less.sory for eanglish. [ Corporal ]

MOSCOW GUARDIAN DOG bright 23 Sep : 17:36 Reply to this
Comments: 9 Registered: 24 Jul : 23:00	nice dogs! [ Major ] -link- -link- -ARUN

Moscow Guardian Dog Mountainbull 31 Aug : 08:02 Reply to this
Guest	Great article.

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admin: 02 Feb : 16:59

Welcome back! It has been quiet.

LeeRobinson: 01 Feb : 20:55

Been busy the last 2 days...if I missed something I should see...PM me a link please. I will be back hopefully by this weekend.

davidfitness83: 30 Jan : 08:13

Happy Monday Jessica

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Happy Monday Y'all

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Tosamama nice to see you see around again

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Hi Tosamama,
the site was moved to a new server about a month ago. Everyting is workig fine. Only problem would be if you had the old cookie on your computer it would prevent you from loging in unless you cleared it. Cookies expire after 30 days. As far as I know you were not blocked. Sorry for the inconvenience.

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What is going on with this site? I couldn't log in for months. Was I banned? Also, a few things won't work for me, and couldn't answer a few posts...

KeyserSoze: 18 Jan : 09:13

wow he's gorgeous, I love Brindle Mastiffs!

babigirl: 18 Jan : 09:11

Yup...Party favor's for Everyone!!!
Stop by at my house to get you FREE bucket of drool.

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awesome

you have a Mastiff party going on lol

babigirl: 18 Jan : 08:45

Just added a couple to the gallery for ya!

KeyserSoze: 18 Jan : 08:18

aww snap a pic for us.

babigirl: 18 Jan : 08:07

I got a e.m. staying with me for a week...
He's laying under my feet now. The next 7 days should be "interesting"

babigirl: 16 Jan : 11:44

Hey Des!!!!
Hows things?

desiree: 16 Jan : 11:15

hai all

maximus: 16 Jan : 08:30

@bvlgari1 the thread moved to a private area so all the recommendations can be looked at in detail without distraction.

babigirl: 16 Jan : 08:00

gsicard: 16 Jan : 07:52

Private Instant Message is back. The latest forum posts are at the top right. This method uses less database resource than the one in the center of the page. I am testing things - patience please.

LeeRobinson: 16 Jan : 07:50

I can't say, but of respect for the administration, it would seem to me that sincere recommendations should be made privately.

babigirl: 15 Jan : 21:55

By clicking on the latest forum post you can still travel into the threads. For some reason the main page is broken, hopefully will have back up and running on Monday. Have a good night ya'll.

Astibus: 15 Jan : 20:58

So we lost the "Latest Forum Posts" Table on the frontpage?? Uhm, thanks Lee! (Just kidding LOL)

babigirl: 15 Jan : 19:27

Sorry Lee.....no longer available.

LeeRobinson: 15 Jan : 18:50

How do you open the private IM chat window with other members? Or, is this feature no longer available?

Astibus: 14 Jan : 16:30

mastinoSinediei talia, I just posted a proposal. Check it out and let us all know if this would address different cultures? Please consider it as a first draft ... and of course complete subject to Gary's approval.

mastinoSinedieitalia: 14 Jan : 15:40

I thank Jessica you for have deleted my thread ... bye bye

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