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Another View of Livestock Guardian Dog History
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Another View of Livestock Guardian Dog History gsicard
17 Sep : 08:03 Reply to this | |
| | Members - what do you think of this article.![]() Gary Sicard Gary Sicard Fear not the harsh words of your enemies but beware the silence of your friends. - Gary Sicard |
Another View of Livestock Guardian Dog History Wolf 17 Sep : 09:43 Reply to this | |
| Guest | As good as anything written on the subject. |
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Another View of Livestock Guardian Dog History CincoDeseosRanch 17 Sep : 11:21 Reply to this | |
| Guest | I guess we all have to remember we view things in different frames of references. And, there is no denying photo evidence of physical breed changes - for better or for worse. After just being told yesterday a horrific tale (I'm endeavoring to find out more specific info on the dogs involved) of 11 LGD's being killed by 4 wolves.....I am still 'in the dumps' so to speak, over the general direction many (not all mind you but a big chunk) LGD's have taken in this country as they are now popularized by the AKC and many, for pets and show ring, and working, guarding ability and attributes take a major back seat...... |
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Another View of Livestock Guardian Dog History Tonedog
17 Sep : 22:05 Reply to this | |
| Registered: 27 Feb : 23:00 | Good article. Don't agree with everything, but mostly good. I especially don't agree with the sentence- "LGDs with greater degrees of aggressiveness were also used for hunting and as war dogs" I think it's a misunderstanding of aristotle's quote- "Of the Molossian breed of dogs, such as are employed in the chase are pretty much the same as those elsewhere; but the sheep-dogs of this breed are superior to the others in size, and in the courage with which they face the attacks of wild animals." It's been interpreted that molossian breed of dogs is a breed of dogs, some used for hunting and some used as sheep dogs. But he's using the term breed differently than we do today. Remember breeds as the concept that they are today didn't exist then. He's talking about two distinctly different types of dogs. The molossians had hunting dogs which were just like everyone elses hunting dogs, but their sheep dogs, or LGDs, were especially big and brave when it came to confronting predators, compared to LGDs from other regions. Or perhaps even "other" sheep dogs, which elsewhere might have been herder types. Maybe what he's talking about were the earliest real LGDs. But yeah he's not saying the hunting dogs were the same breed as the sheep dogs, and the hunting dogs certainly were not LGDs. [ Enthusiast ] |
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Another View of Livestock Guardian Dog History Tonedog
17 Sep : 23:18 Reply to this | |
| Registered: 27 Feb : 23:00 | I think I agree... just to check, my view is it seems "Molossians" became known for their impressive sheep dogs, not their other dogs, which as he said, were just like those from elsewhere and nothing special. Since then the term "molosser" SHOULD be used to describe the dogs which descended from these dogs. Which I'm not sure, but could be all LGDs? Or at least a portion of the bigger more impressive ones? I'm starting to think it sounds like sheep dogs elsewhere at this time were just sheep dogs, just herder/guards, but molossians first developed these very large specialised flock guardians, which is why they stood out, and they've since branched out to become the family known as LGDs. Ofcourse, the first ones would have been more multipurpose than LGDs are now, but perhaps less multipurpose than the dogs they descended from. I think it's clear from that quote that the molossians had a hunting dog as well as sheep dogs, which indicates clearly that already their LGDs were not hunting dogs, and their hunting dogs couldn't be used to guard sheep. So neither was especially well rounded compared to the dogs which preceded them in earlier societies, which probably did both roles (relatively poorly). On a side note; I do like in the article how it's mentioned horses don't need guardians, very true. This is an often confused point, lots of domestic animals simply don't need livestock guardians, they can do fine by themselves out in the bush, and historically these animals didn't have livestock guardians and even though considered "domesticated", actually lived in a semi-wild state until fairly recently, looking after themselves. Sheep and to a slightly lesser extent goats do need livestock guardians to exist, they and they alone were responsible for the rise of livestock guardians. They evolved with livestock guardians and became something that needs them, and livestock guardians are only needed for them. The domestication of horses, cattle and swine called for a different type of dog, more of a hunting dog in fact because like I said they were semi-wild uncooperative unruly beasts that needed to be rounded up, captured and tamed by force. Guarded... not so much. To me the domestication of goats and sheep and the domestication of cattle and swine (possibly horse as well but I'm not sure) represents the split between livestock guardians and gripping dogs. Each group is the way it is in response to the animals they helped to domesticate. The "mastiffs" that are frequently mislabeled as "guard dogs" and "fighting dogs" and etc are actually cattle/boar dogs, while the other dogs sometimes called mastiffs, the LGDs, are sheep/goat dogs. Basically all mastiffs have one of these two origins, with perhaps the possibility of rare extremely primitive mastiffs in far flung corners of the globe that pre-date this split. Possibly, but not really likely IMO. [ Enthusiast ] |
Another View of Livestock Guardian Dog History Wolf 17 Sep : 23:22 Reply to this | |
| Guest | You got it. |
Another View of Livestock Guardian Dog History Astibus
17 Sep : 23:40 Reply to this | |
| Registered: 11 Sep : 23:00 | One thing I noticed is that the sheep in the Balkans are predominantly white, whereas the Shars come mostly in some shade of dark/sable, not white. The people there say the color can stand out so the wolves see the dogs right away; exactly the opposite of many other cultures, where shepherds want their dogs to blend in with the sheep. I think it's an interesting concept to not having LGDs blend in with the sheep, it only works if predators associate the mere site of LGDs as huge trouble. Another reason might of course be that less stringent color requirements allow for more performance based selection. [ Contributor ] Astibus "The Šarplaninec shows us how to stand tall when confronted by wolves!" |
Another View of Livestock Guardian Dog History Tonedog
17 Sep : 23:57 Reply to this | |
| Registered: 27 Feb : 23:00 | I'm trying to understand what reason there is for the dogs to blend in with the sheep? What is the benefit? Is it the surprise element? Wolves can stand back and calculate an attack on the dogs if they notice them from afar, but will be startled and run when a sheep "turns into" a dog? It does seem the white LGDs are the ones which end up killed most frequently- pyrs, maremmas and kuvasz. But is this because they're white, or because they're all basically the same animal and not a very formidable one compared to other LGDs? [ Enthusiast ] |
Another View of Livestock Guardian Dog History Wolf 18 Sep : 01:12 Reply to this | |
| Guest | The white thing came along for a few different reasons, depending on the period in history. After guns came into the picture, it was seen as less important to have a do-it-all LGD and at night, it was figured, it'd be easier to distinguish a dog from a wolf if it was white. Prior to that, white was appreciated for cosmetic reasons tied to superstitions, as well as a way of distinguishing some clan's strain if it was in this way dissimilar to their neighbour's stock and so forth. The widespread promotion of white LGDs as something special came due the advances in sheep-farming and the assumption (however reasonable or incorrect) that the sheep found white dogs less menacing and that, coupled with the practice of breaking any roughness in the dogs for generations has ultimately created actual sheepdogs, as in sheep in dogs' clothing. Toughest and bravest sheep you'll see, but still. |
Another View of Livestock Guardian Dog History Crnosrce1 18 Sep : 06:45 Reply to this | |
| Guest | So its time for American ranchers to cough up some dough and get some real deal LGD dogs, bring them here, and breed harder/sharper to harder/sharper. |
Another View of Livestock Guardian Dog History Wolf 18 Sep : 12:11 Reply to this | |
| Guest | If the Man approves, otherwise it's playing with fire. |
Another View of Livestock Guardian Dog History Tonedog
19 Sep : 00:04 Reply to this | |
| Registered: 27 Feb : 23:00 | Thanks for clearing up that white coat thing, all stands to reason. [ Enthusiast ] |
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9.0 - 3 votes -
Another View of Livestock Guardian Dog History 